Curse

Gaile Gray · Apr 02, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Hi, there,

I wanted to give you a bit more information about this situation. As you know, recent changes to the laws in Taiwan made it necessary to change how accounts work. However, we are very sensitive to the fact that players want to continue to play on with their friends around the world. For instance, players in Taiwan, Macau, and Hong Kong want to interact with other players outside those areas; players in other areas around the world want to be able to interact with their friends in Taiwan, Macau, or Hong Kong. We do not want anyone to be concerned about this issue. We are working with NC Taiwan to make sure that we can take care of our players, and we'll be sharing information as soon as we have details on that.

As you might know, I was in Taiwan in 2006, and I love the country and consider the players there my good friends. I'm really happy that ArenaNet and NC Taiwan will be able to make arrangements so that we all can continue to enjoy the game together in the future.

Best regards,

GG (my nickname in Taiwan

)

Masao · Apr 02, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

You might need to pay a bit more attention in class.
First of all, let us be clear that you haven't read the law in question (neither have, nor indeed can, I), so this is all guesswork about what the law says.

Next, I am sure even a first year law student can see the difference between private and public property. Now black may be white in Taiwan for all I know, but I doubt NCsoft's contract with their customers actually transferred any property rights to the customers. NCsoft still owns all virtual data related to player accounts. (Correct me if I am wrong here, but only if you can provide citations.) It is this right that allows NCsoft to close up shop in Taiwan: if the players owned any of that data, NCsoft would be committing theft.

Hence, if Anet decides to terminate any account, they are legally in the clear.

What this law does or at least appears to do is to protect gold selling companies from lawsuits by NCsoft. I really doubt there was ever any likely danger of NCsoft being sued by gold selling companies. What would their grievance be? Loss of property? They never owned any! Denial of service? Nope, contract says (I presume) service can be terminated at NCsoft's whim.

(Arguing legal mumbo jumbo with anonymouses on a game forum is not how I planned to spend a quiet evening, so I'll let you have the last word.)

Wrong. Also the issue here is not private vs. public property, it is whether or not the property rights would be imputed to either NCSoft or to the consumer, and also whether or not the right of access to the game (which is undoubtedly separate from the ability to trade items) is being denied to the consumer.

Intellectual property law aside, any contractual agreement would be void by legislation that makes it unconstitutional, or unlawful depending on the jurisdiction you are in.

I assume that nobody actually paid for the game there, as all I hear about are trial accounts, but should they pay for it then the provision that will remain lawful will still be in effect, and that is to provide access to the game. Other provisions reserving a right of reversion in NCSoft on all accounts will likely be stricken from the contract and the rest of the contract taken prima facie.

In this case, there would be the possibility of a class action suit involving all those who indeed paid for the service for either money damages for the product of which they have been deprived or an injunction forcing NCSoft to release the blocks on the accounts until they modify the contract at a later time. Notice in several updates you have to agree to a modified contract; these seem to happen a few times a year.

In total the recovery would be the cost of all of the games sold. At this point though, since most seem to be trial versions or free after buying certain ingame services, it doesn't look like NCSoft would face any money damages.

Many Asian countries take a far different stance on virtual property, and as I am not schooled in their laws all I can go by is the knowledge that laws regarding such property are stricter in terms of reducing the right of companies to revoke contracts regarding such property.

@Ravious: Of course, there are arguments both ways but given my knowledge of contracts and multinational litigation gained thus far it seems highly likely that a court will find in favor of Taiwan should any suit be brought against NCSoft for transactions arising out of contractual occurrences in the state of Taiwan.

@Vamis Threen: I don't see anyone else that has any credentials stepping up to the plate. Maybe you could provide us with one, but until then my legal opinion looks like the best you've got. Feel free to present yours.

I would appreciate it if you would actually present an argument based in law rather than your own personal ideas of public policy. Instead of flaming the one providing a valid legal opinion, step up with a legal reasoning of your own.

EDIT: To make clear my stance on this.

Good job on NCSoft's part. It both limits liability and also legally circumvents future laws which many in the computer entertainment world would view as detriments to the market as a whole.

Div · Apr 02, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Wow. /sadface

Though I think most of the farmer accounts are based off Japanese servers, shutting these servers down will at least reduce the number of farmers by 25%

And without farmers, there will be less total gold in the market, which means prices will go down

So what happens if I have a Taiwanese guild? Does that mean I can't access the GH anymore? UPS

RobTehUnknown · Apr 02, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Wow this is all harsh

redrum38 · Apr 02, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by guolisong

http://games.sina.com.cn/o/z/gw/2007...07255819.shtml
I suppose that's what you are talking about then. So what you are trying to say is you paid for the game and the people in mainland didn't so you should get a refund when they isolate the Taiwan server from the international as well?

Yes , I am trying to say the right of Taiwan's players be aggrieved now .
Someones can get an account for free in China's server , and China's server is open beta not ceremonial operate .
But Taiwan is not , if we want to play we must pay for playing , and NCTaiwan had sell product of GW .
I paid NT3960 (about $130) to buy Prophecies + Factions + Nightfall + Eye of the North + Bonus Mission Pack like as American or European players paid for it .
I want to tell Anet "Hey , that is $130 not $13 or $1.3" .
And most of legal players in Taiwan's server all do as like as me pay to buy GW .
But we can't connect international anymore now , and maybe will be shut down even American/European GW still operate .
NCTaiwan tell us "because of the contract between ANet and NCTaiwan becomes due" .
Anet tell us "in response to recent changes to Taiwanese law" .
So great , they tell us two different reason , I don't know which is true .
Maybe all true , maybe all false .
And I am living in Taiwan , but I don't know anything about the new Taiwanese law what Anet says .
Even if the new Taiwanese law is true , I think that Anet should know it a few months ago , but Anet didn't tell us anything before , Anet only tell us after they cut off the connection between Taiwan and international .
Don't tell me that Anet know the new law on 3/31 and they decide to cut off the connection on 4/1 .
Can Anet restrain gold farmer efficacious after cut off Taiwan ?
I think the answer is "NO" .
Wow , the resolution to cut off Taiwan is so great .
I just feel that Anet got my money and joking me as a monkey now .
Who will be the next monkey after Taiwan ? I don't know , maybe Japan maybe .
Look this , Update - Thursday, January 17, 2008
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20080117
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Game_updates/2008_January
Open Travel: Territory and District UI Changes
Restrictions on travel to Japanese and Taiwanese language districts will be removed in a subsequent build.
So great , Taiwanese districts will be "removed" now .

Masao · Apr 02, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Wow. /sadface

Though I think most of the farmer accounts are based off Japanese servers, shutting these servers down will at least reduce the number of farmers by 25%

And without farmers, there will be less total gold in the market, which means prices will go down

So what happens if I have a Taiwanese guild? Does that mean I can't access the GH anymore? UPS

Actually, less gold will make the value of gold go up, thus prices will likely increase or stay steady for a bit longer than usual.

Also, as to the location of farmers, I don't see how you found Japan to be a source of farming. The previous hotbeds of farming activity were China and Taiwan. Both still have quite a few gold farming sweatshops, which server gold selling purposes for pretty much every MMO there is.

However, in the last couple of interviews with gold farming interests that I've seen, the market is steadily moving toward Indonesia due to the stricter enforcements on gameplay time and violation of virtual agreements in China.

Chthon · Apr 02, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

Sigh. Laymen don't understand the law.

Internet connections to a country are tenuous. The Taiwanese government would sue ANet/NCTaiwan because banning someone would be out of ANet/NCTaiwan's jurisdictional rights to deny service. You can't just switch servers and then be subject to the law of the country that runs that server. You have to satisfy sufficient and substantial continuous contacts, minimum contacts, and the long arm statute has to be able to reach into the state of residence to grab the person, and you have to satisfy some test that will get you minimum contacts, usually Burger King or stream of commerce plus.

Spoken like a true first-year law student halfway through civil procedure class. Now, go read Piper Aircraft to see why none of it is going to be applicable here. If there's a suit to be brought here, it's going to be in a Taiwanese or South Korean Court. I know precious little about the Taiwanese legal system, and zip about the South Korean one; and I'm pretty sure you've learned less than zip about either during your first year of law school.

Now, my gut instincts about what's fair would tell me that it's not fair for the Taiwanese players to get shut down like this. A EULA is not (or at least ought not be) a binding contract, and, even if it were, a "we'll take your money, but maybe provide you no service at all if we feel like it" term is so unfair that it ought not be enforced. That's my opinion about what's fair. But, is that what the applicable laws say? Darned if I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Can anyone who groks the Taiwanese legal system (on guru? haha, I'm naive as a kitten) tell us what this law really says?

Grok it I definitely do not. Tell you what: I know a Chinese Lit. (and Japaense Lit -- she's trilingual!) PhD student who's also a MMO gamer. Next time I see her, I'll ask if she could find and translate this law for me.

Masao · Apr 02, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Spoken like a true first-year law student halfway through civil procedure class. Now, go read Piper Aircraft to see why none of it is going to be applicable here. If there's a suit to be brought here, it's going to be in a Taiwanese or South Korean Court. I know precious little about the Taiwanese legal system, and zip about the South Korean one; and I'm pretty sure you've learned less than zip about either during your first year of law school.

Thanks for proving my point! That's exactly what I was trying to say, that if anything it would be tried in said Taiwanese court, and thus the law of the instant jurisdiction would apply.

For the uninitiated, Piper Aircraft regards the dismissal of a claim through forum non conveniens, and use of law unfavorable to the plaintiff. I'm quite sure a Taiwanese court would apply Taiwanese law, as any contract between NCSoft and Taiwan would be subject to the law of that forum. Given the agreement was between NCTaiwan and many Taiwanese users, as well as the probability that there are people running around Taiwan that NCSoft has contacts with, it's easy to find some way to pull NCSoft in on a minimum contacts basis using the standard in International Shoe.

As for law unfavorable to the plaintiff, the plaintiff would likely be those detrimented by the change in the EULA, i.e. Taiwanese residents. Taiwanese law would be applied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A EULA is not (or at least ought not be) a binding contract, and, even if it were, a "we'll take your money, but maybe provide you no service at all if we feel like it" term is so unfair that it ought not be enforced.

An EULA is a standard form agreement with offer and acceptance, though it is somewhat like Carnival Cruise Lines as the performance, or payment of money, comes before you sign the EULA.

I disagree with the Carnival ruling, and a fairly polished argument may be made that if there is indeed a forum-selection clause that the case be tried in the U.S. courts, or wherever NCSoft designates, but the law of Taiwan would likely still be applied.

Cyber-litigation is still an open field, and I have no knowledge of current caselaw concerning it. However, it seems unlikely the courts would stray from such an inherent idea of fairness in contracts that they should be fairly bargained for, so I see where you're coming from on this point.

I appreciate the fact that you've shown that you know at least some caselaw and presented ideas that were consistent. Perhaps slightly less hostility would be nice, as this thread shouldn't be locked for degenerating into a flamewar.

EDIT: Uh, this might be a stupid question, but what does 'grok' mean?

Dr Strangelove · Apr 02, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

As you know, recent changes to the laws in Taiwan made it necessary to change how accounts work.

Can you elaborate more, or give links to these law changes? All I've been able to find recently are changes in Chinese law regarding the incident in Tibet and Youtube, which shouldn't apply to Taiwan. I'm kind of curious what's going on over there.

Masao · Apr 02, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Can you elaborate more, or give links to these law changes? All I've been able to find recently are changes in Chinese law regarding the incident in Tibet and Youtube, which shouldn't apply to Taiwan. I'm kind of curious what's going on over there.

Earlier in the thread someone posted a message from NCSoft stating that it regarded the ability of gaming companies to ban or delete accounts for gold farming/selling.

The actual legislation has yet to be posted.

Ceylon Tea Cat · Apr 02, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Dear ArenaNet,

After April fools day, Taiwanese district couldn't connect to other district in the economy. The reason is the notorious professional gold farmers from Mainland China.
Most of us are live in Taiwan and Hong Kong, we're not gold farmers.

Those gold farmer pays the game fee by "monthly" (like WoW, Guild Wars monthly fee only available in Taiwan and Japan). And the monthly fee of Japan is lower than us, and they dont block IP (but Taiwan server does), so I can say that most of professional gold farmers exists in Japanese server, not in Taiwanese server.

There is rumor and panic between Taiwanese player. It says we'll face account file deletion. This economic blocking will lead our accounts and characters to the doom. And we dont know what will happen after the contract between Anet and NCTaiwan becomes due.

Both Japanese and Taiwanese players are innocent of the damage of economic system, how could our players who lives in Taiwan doom to face this unfair treatment?

I must say that Guild Wars aren't so popular like other country here. Due to the idiotism marketing of NCTaiwan. Though we dont have top guilds now.(we do year ago.) Though we seldom win in HoH. But we're still paid about $150 just like others. We're innocent of this damage of Guild Wars economy. We hate those gold farmers, and we usually ignore them, because they're rude and unfriendly.

Please, Arena Net, we're NOT professional gold farmer.

Best Regards, Ceylon Tea Cat

Div · Apr 02, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ceylon Tea Cat

Please, Arena Net, we're NOT professional gold farmer.

Don't delete their servers then!

I dunno, it's just very myopic of Anet to sign such a bad contract to not allow for the enjoyment of the game amongst the international community. It would be the same as if Blizzard all of a sudden decided that you can only play starcraft within your own state, and can't have any international interaction because of some silly contract.

In light of the mAT fiasco, Anet should really learn to actually pay attention to what they're doing. Sure this may not be their fault, but signing such a short contract (without good renewal plans) is just horrible.

Tyla · Apr 02, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

I think it's mainly because alot of bots and epicfarmers come from those districts. Not really sure of the bot problem myself, but I have read alot and usually it's coming from those servers. (I think so, anyway.)

Captain Miken · Apr 02, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

your name made me laugh my ass off

deluxe · Apr 02, 2008, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Its just Taiwan... 50% of the people in the US couldn't even locate it on a map, must be april fools!

This applies not just to Taiwan, but any country outside of the US

chris12 · Apr 02, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Once again, didnt feel like reading a novel of posts to see if what i want to say has already been said...Sucks that ALOT of people wont be able to play GW, but it is, just a game. Im not an expert, but i think NCSoft will lose alot of money with the loss of 3 entire regions of gamers.

What doesnt suck is the loss of all the bots, the RMT, and the farmers. Alot of very rare items will be removed from circulation which will make the value for the ones that are still circulated go up alot higher. All the gold, ectos, minis, etc that they have over in those regions will just completely go away which will definately boost the GW economy and players in every other region will definately benefit.

I also read in one post that new laws are "limiting communiaction via mmorpg's". That definately sounds like the old Isolationist China that we learned about in history class. Well either way, this does suck for the gamers over there but it is still a game. Hope everything works out, bc i know i would be SOOOOOO MAD if i couldnt play GW lol.

Lawrence Chang · Apr 02, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Posting on here wouldn't help. I think we all agree that most of the people using Guru would agree this is unfair, but writing to Anet directly would be more helpful.

1 up and 2 down · Apr 02, 2008, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Taiwan and Japan have a monthly fee?

chris12 · Apr 02, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Well I seriously doubt that its ONLY because of the RMT and the majoriy of the bots coming from that region...

chikorita23 · Apr 02, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I am Taiwanese, although I live and play GW in US services for 3 years. I must said, Anet really disappoint me.

Professional gold farmer exist EVERYWHERE! If according from Anet's theory, banning a country's service = solving gold farmer problems, then Anet you probably should ban the whole game start from US districts.

I was on gamer.com.tw and a lot of players couldn't help it by thinking this is RACISM!!! Anet was giving out excuses earlier by saying they did this because of recent Taiwanese law changed. Oh please.... even if it does, it would take months to adjust and I wouldn't believe Anet stand by and "instantly" blocking all the Taiwan/HongKong GW account connection to internation distracts.

Areana Net, one of the reason I like guild-war is because they emphysis on asian-culture when they making faction. I remember before faction came out, they actually spend time collecting all the nowadays Taiwan, Japan and Hongkong celebrities, trying to have an idea how we asians juding on beauties! (because we have total different standard when it comes to beauty, fashion, image on men and women etc.) I was very impressed and touched Areana net are paying good efforts and attentions on Asian market.

Now for whatever BIAS and EXCUSES by banning Taiwanese,Hongkongese services.... this really disgrace Anet Company and disappoint all the Guildwar support asian fans. We all PAID the money, so we should be treat equally Anet. Please find a best way solve the issue, banning and neglecting solve nothing!